Friends that Can Hold the Real You, Not Just the Best of You

Show Notes

In the Season 1 finale of I Am MUCH Woman, CortneyJo is joined by Clarissa Buckley, Taleen Dunlap, and Shawna Martinez for a heartfelt conversation on authentic friendship. They explore what it means to be fully seen, accepted, and loved—without performing. Through stories of faith, growth, and shared experiences, the women reflect on letting go of the need to fix others, honoring personal capacity, and showing up with honesty and grace. Together, they embody what it means to be a MUCH Woman in friendship: measured, unafraid, captivating, and heroic. Their message is clear—real friendship is ministry.

Episode Highlights:
(3:12) Clarissa, Taleen, and Shawna’s thoughts on the episode title

(11:20) How CortneyJo’s guests have learned to stop performing in friendships and be themselves

(19:41) Clarissa’s experience of having a hard conversation that changed her for the better

(22:36) How to know when you don’t have the capacity for a friendship, and how to honor that

(33:25) Do we always have to relate to what others are going through?

(39:12) The importance of realizing that you’re not always going to get it right

(41:04) What being a MUCH Woman means for CortneyJo’s guests

(48:10) Closing thoughts

Transcript

CortneyJo: Welcome to the I Am MUCH Woman podcast, where we inspire and guide women to deepen their personal relationship with God and to grow in their understanding of His Word.

Hello, MUCH Woman family. Welcome back to the I Am MUCH Woman podcast. Today’s episode marks a special milestone. This is episode twelve in the season one finale, yay. I am deeply grateful for the opportunity to offer twelve heartfelt conversations this season, and I pray that each one of them has encouraged you, challenged you, and nourished you on your faith walk. This episode is particularly close to my heart because I am joined by three of my favorite friendgirls for a powerful conversation on friendship.

The episode is titled, “Friends that Can Hold the Real You, Not Just the Best of You.” The inspiration for this episode came after an experience that caused me to pause and reflect deeply. As many of you all know, I’ve been on a healing journey and learning how to honor myself, care for myself, and show up fully in every space that God has called me to. And while support is absolutely vital, the right kind of support, the kind that can hold your truth and your transformation, it is truly a gift. So, today I am excited to welcome Clarissa Buckley from St Louis, Missouri; Shawna Martinez from Long Island, New York; and Taleen Dunlap from Brooklyn, New York.

I’m sharing where these ladies are from because I genuinely believe that the places we come from shape who we are, and these women, they carry so much wisdom, strength, and flavor. You hear me? Last year, these beautiful souls joined me in celebrating my 40th birthday by attending a Christian Women’s Conference in Tampa, Florida, and while we definitely had our share of fun, we also got into some real, real, real conversations, the kind where each of us felt safe enough to just be raw and honest.

And here’s what makes it even more special. Although I have known all three of these women for years, that weekend was their first time meeting one another, yet somehow, it just felt like we had all known each other forever. There was safety, there was laughter, and there was truth. It meant the world to me to witness that kind of connection, the kind that it doesn’t require a performance. So, let’s get into this conversation. All right, y’all, let’s get started. Okay, Clarissa, Taleen, Shawna.

Taleen: Hey, girl.

Clarissa: Mm-hm.

Shawna: Hey.

CortneyJo: Hey, y’all, hey. So, what came up for you when you heard this title, “Friends that Can Hold the Real You, Not Just the Best of You?” Clarissa, let’s start with you.

Clarissa: Sure. So, the first thing that came to mind was, wow, that is a great definition of true friendship. I often think that friendship is about being your true self, being able to connect with others in a very authentic way, and me personally, I’ve had to learn over the course of a lifetime, especially through trial and error, like, how I define relationships and how I define friendships. And so, for me personally, when I heard the title, “Friends that Can Hold the Real You, Not Just the Best of You,” it really reminded me of how Jesus himself, you know, kind of structured his relationships, right? So, he had that bigger circle of people who felt a connection to him, they were his followers, for sure, they were some of his, you know, fans and supporters, right, but then he had that circle, that circle of twelve disciples who he had a deeper and a closer connection to, folks that supported him on a little bit more of an intimate level.

And then he had that trio, right? So, he had Peter, James, and John, and those were his ride-or-dies, right? Those are the people who he needed present, you know, when times got tough. And so, you know, for me, it’s definitely been just a model, you know, just like a blueprint, you know, in terms of how I look at friendship, how I structure friendship.

And also, you know, everybody couldn’t handle Jesus. Everybody couldn’t handle his personality, you know? You know, there’s a lot of stories in the Bible where people are like, you know, “What is Jesus up to now? What is he doing?” You know? But it was those that faithful core group, who really were able to hold the real him. So, you know, again, when I heard that topic, I was like, wow. What an awesome definition of true friendship.

CortneyJo: Amen, amen. Taleen, what do you think? What’s your thoughts?

Taleen: Initially, when you presented this to us as a group, I initially, I thought back to our time in Tampa, right, because that truly, that weekend, those three, what three, four short days that we spent together, to me, that was [clear throat] the most authentic, I think I’ve been that entire year. You know, just to be able to laugh—I mean, we laughed, we cried, you know, probably all in the same few seconds because we’re that crazy [laugh]. But it was such a good time, and that’s what I think of when I think of our friendship, I think of, [clear throat] you know, we constantly, you know, a lot of us have mommy hats, and we have, you know, entrepreneur hats, we have all these different hats that we’re in, and we have to put on, we have to code switch, we have to present ourselves a certain way. And it’s a blessing, it’s truly a gift, I think the kids now are calling it rich. You’re really rich when you have friends where you can let your hair down, you know, and you know you can speak a certain way, and they know exactly what you’re trying to say.

You don’t have to put on, you know? You can be, you know, crazy, emotional, funny, and still love the Lord, you know, and not miss a step. And so, I love that, and I love that I can be that around you ladies. It’s truly a blessing. I’m rich, [laugh] so truly a blessing, yeah.

CortneyJo: Amen. Shawna Martinez?

Shawna: Yes ma’am. So, I am just so incredibly grateful to be here, and this is an amazing topic, CortneyJo. And as I’ve reflected on friends that can hold a space for a real you, you often come first to mind because throughout the duration of our friendship, you have been kind and authentic and tender and supportive and encouraging, and you have always been sure to pour life into me. And no matter what the season was, the triumphs and the valleys, you remained the same. And so, when I think about you, know the real you, you created an environment early on, where it was safe to just be. And you loved me regardless.

And the older I get, the more miles that are behind me, being able to look at our friendships and relationships and evaluate, we might know a lot of people, but people that can really show up for you—and it doesn’t mean we have to talk every day. It doesn’t mean that we have to stay in touch, but it’s like, hey, if you send a text at two o’clock s in the morning and it says, “SOS, I need prayer. I need you.” And it’s like, “Hey, I’m here. Talk to me. How can I help? Here are these resources.”

CortneyJo is the resource queen, Y’all. If there’s something you going for going through, CortneyJo has a resource because it’s like, “Hey, I hear you. Your feelings are validated. You are absolutely okay to feel what you feel. How can I support you through this? Here are some things that I have you know in my tool belt. I want to share my experience, strength, and hope with you.” And so, I’m just so incredibly grateful. I remember when we were in Tampa, and I said it spoke volumes about CortneyJo, to have this group of just incredible godfearing followers of Christ who, you know it was just seamless. She was so easy to integrate your friends from different walks, and that spoke a lot about your character. So, thank you, and excited for this topic.

CortneyJo: Thank you.

Taleen: Amen to the resources, too. CortneyJo will send you a book and a podcast while you’re talking, still on the [laugh] phone. Like, oh yeah, by the way, we just referenced it. I’m going to, I just texted to you [laugh].

Shawna: So, you know what? This reminds me of a scripture. Let’s go on and get to the—let’s pull the app up. Let’s read it in a couple of versions of a scripture for that. And I love that those are the kind of friends that we need.

CortneyJo: Y’all, thank you for sharing just your hearts, you know, and your thoughts about this topic, but also thank you for the kind words that you’ve shared about just our friendships. I mean, I love each and every one of you so dearly, and I want to say as much as you say, that I’m a good friend, I’m able to be that because you all create the same space for me. You allow me to be real. You allow me to be myself and I appreciate you all, you know, I appreciate all of you all for that. I remember, this was 20-plus years ago now, but Clarissa, [laugh] she was my first friend that told me that I didn’t have to perform.

She was like, “Listen, friend, you know, you get to be yourself with me. I see you trying to”—like, she could see that her approval meant a lot to me, and she made it very clear to me early on, she was like, “Listen, you are approved. You are accepted, and I just want you to be real. I don’t want you to feel like you have to act. I don’t want you to feel like you have to perform. I don’t want you to feel like you have to be on all the time, or even be good all the time, or make all the right decisions. I want you to know I love you, and I want you to be really comfortable, to be yourself with me.”

And I didn’t know what to do with myself after that. I’m like, oh my gosh. Like, you know, and at the time, I was early-20s, I was probably 21 or something like that, when Clarissa shared that with me. So, I thank you for that, and Shawna and Taleen, I love y’all so much. Thank you for creating the same space for me. And you know, it’s something about being able to—you don’t discover who your real friends are until you realize you don’t have to perform, right?

But let’s talk about that a little bit, friendgirls. How have you learned to stop performing in friendships and actually show up as your real self? Because sometimes I don’t know if everybody knows that they’re performing. Like, well, how do I know that I’m performing? Well, what is the difference between performing and even being my real self? Friendgirls, can you give us some perspective on that Taleen, it sounds like you got something bubbling up.

Taleen: So, it’s so loaded. Like, I can talk for an hour because… so when we think about, like you said, a lot of times, we don’t even know that we’re performing, right? We don’t know because we have this people-pleasing spirit that we are plagued with. We want to be accepted. We want to be loved, like you shared earlier. Clarissa identified that immediately in your friendship because we want to be accepted so bad.

I had this I don’t even know what it’s called, but for me, in my relationships, and just early on in my walk with the Lord, I found that I wanted to be accepted so bad that I was just trying to find a group, right? I was figuring myself out. You know, you’re a freshman in college, and you’re trying to figure out what group you belong to and where you want to fit in. But I never felt accepted, you know, in the Super holy rolling Christian group. Again, I’m from New York.

I wore Tims all the time. People joke about that, you know, I would wear Timberlands and, [laugh] you know, to church because that was my comfort zone. So, I never really felt accepted with the holy rolling, the super Christian, the you know, praise the Lord every five you know, seconds in their conversation. Bless their heart. Not to speak down to anybody, like, I love you all, but I didn’t really feel accepted in that group, but then I also really didn’t feel accepted in the worldly group either.

Like, I just, I there was a drawing on my heart. And then I didn’t necessarily have a relationship with the Lord, but it’s just I didn’t feel accepted worldly. I was just too holy for the worldly people, but then I was just too worldly for the Christians. And so, I found myself just in this limbo of just trying to fit in, trying to belong, but for me, what did it for me was I found a group of people that was like, you don’t have to be anything but who you are. And they loved me. I think that’s what it took.

You know, they loved, you know, my New York accent and my you know, everything about me, and I didn’t have to put on, I didn’t have to conform to them. I was just able to be myself. And then that kind of helped me be comfortable in myself. Like, okay, all right. I don’t have to, you know, change, code switch, so to speak. I can be me. And so, that helps too, just being in that group that loves you and accepts you for you.

And you know, we think about that all the time. We’re all different parts of the body, right? The Bible talks about that, and so once I started to understand, Taleen, you don’t need to be—nobody has three legs and three arms. Like, we all need to really, really hone in to our position in the body of Christ. What is it that I bring to it, you know?

The world doesn’t need another, you know, so-and-so. It needs me, and what the Lord has called me to do, and what the Lord has called me to be in the way that I say it and do it because somebody is going to be drawn to him by how he created me, you know? They’re going to identify with that. So, just being comfortable in that and understanding that, like, God created me exactly how I am for His purpose. And so, why would I install him by changing that? So.

Clarissa: I love that. I love that, and I’m going to echo exactly what Taleen just said because for me, I would add to that and just say, you know, in order to stop performing, you really have to, you know, love and accept yourself. You know, you have to get in, you have to get in that space where you know when you ask CortneyJo, like, how do you know that you’re performing? It’s what’s natural, what comes natural to you, and are you trying to force, you know, yourself into a relationship or into a template? And you know, if you find yourself forcing yourself, or if it feels uncomfortable, if it feels unnatural, you know, then you could be performing. It’s just a way to kind of check that type of behavior.

But you know you really have to learn how to love and accept yourself before anybody else can, right? So, you know, to echo, again, Taleen, you know, what she referenced for me was like Ephesians 2:10. You know, God has mentioned that, you know, we are His handiwork, right? He created us uniquely, so why do we need to be a copy and pasted version of someone else? Why do we feel the need to be the copy and pasted version of someone else?

You know, there is this song, I know we’re all familiar with: “This Little Light of Mine; I’m Going to let it Shine,” right? And we all have these individual lights, and we got to let them shine. We have to put them on display. And why cover them up? Why hide them, right? We have to, you know, it’s a journey of love and acceptance of self so that you can then, you know, really, truly value when other people start to love and accept you as well.

CortneyJo: Amen. How about you, Shawna?

Shawna: Yeah. So, I’m just, I’ll keep it brief. I think just to even take it a step further on, on building on what Taleen and Clarissa have already shared, in order to learn to love and accept yourself, you have to know who you are, so really getting into your own identity. And that can be really challenging for some of us. We talked a little bit about, you know, my I’m from, originally from New York, but I grew up in the suburbs of the metro Atlanta area in a predominantly white area, and so for me, learning how to navigate this space where I was surrounded by people who didn’t look like me and just trying to fit in, and that definitely led to some, like, kind of identity crisis later in life, and feeling like, kind of similar to what Taleen was saying, that maybe, you know, I didn’t fit in with one group because I liked country music, and you know, and then maybe wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t quite one thing or another.

And the older that I get, the more—and through therapy—I’m able to say that, like, I’m getting in touch with who I am and learning to love her exactly how God designed her, and that’s a really beautiful space to be in to then evaluate, okay, if I know who I am, then I know the kind of people I want to attract. And it’s about attraction and not necessarily promotion, especially when we think about being followers of Christ. You know, the performative elements, there’s so many arenas in which we have to perform. And you know, I work in corporate America, I’m an accountant, and I think about just how on we have to be every day, whether it be to, you know you have to be accommodating, be a team player, you can’t be too emotional, you can’t be angry or aggressive. You have to be overly friendly just to walk around, especially as a woman of color, in these spaces, and that can be really exhausting. So, it’s just really nice to get around people where you can just breathe and just be.

CortneyJo: Amen. Amen. It really does take courage to stop performing and start being, and the reward to that is authenticity, you know? And all of you, are absolutely right that getting to know ourselves, being really comfortable with who we are really helps us to understand, you know, what we need and things like that. And so, I definitely encourage anyone, you know, just listening in and as we talked about how to know when you stop performing, Clarissa, I loved when you said… you just said it, how does it feel, you know? Does it feel like you’re forcing it?

You know, and also learning how to be honest with yourself when it comes to those things. So, let’s move into hard conversations because sometimes there’s hard conversations happening in friendships. Can you all share a moment when you had a hard conversation that changed the friendship for the better?

Clarissa: I can probably go ahead and start and I will say just one little tweak. I don’t know if it changed the friendship for the better, but it definitely changed me for the better. So, I have a couple of scenarios. So, one was about 20 years ago. I met a young lady at church. We were both singing in the choir, and it wasn’t a relationship where we were naturally drawn to each other, but she expressed that she needed a ride to choir rehearsal, she needed a ride to church. And I felt like, okay, let me help her, right?

Our personalities were very different, very, very different. Our lifestyles were also different, and if I’m honest, that version of myself 20 years ago felt like I was gifting her my friendship, okay? So, I remember, you know, our friendship had—‘friendship’—had kind of gone on for a few months, and then one day she asked me to come over her house. And I was like, okay, like, it’s not a day, I have to—it’s not Sunday, it’s not choir rehearsal day. What’s going on?

So, when I get over her house, she proceeds to tell me that she doesn’t she no longer wants to be friends with me. And I don’t remember the exact reasons that she gave because I was in shock, right? And so, you know, when you’re in shock, you can’t even hear, [laugh] you know, what other people are saying. But I remember, kind of after that talk, I remember thinking, like, how bold and courageous she was right to realize that this relationship was being forced, you know, that I probably did not have the best of intentions, you know, with that relationship. Maybe I couldn’t hold, you know, the real her, right, and so she made a very courageous decision, you know, to end a friendship, you know, that was not serving her well.

And even though, you know, again, I was—my feelings were feeling, right, you know, I still—like, that moment stuck with me. And after some time and some maturity, I started to be able to operate in that same courage, and to, you know, have those courageous conversations with people, you know, if they were not supposed to be, you know, in my circle of friends. And it was liberating. It was absolutely liberating.

CortneyJo: Amen, amen. I love that, Clarissa, where you say, you know, just liberating, just being honest. That’s what I feel like I hear you saying, it’s just that honesty, you know, somebody being able to be honest. And it’s interesting that you said you gifted her, you know, with your friendship, and she picked up on that obviously, like, wait a minute, this ain’t working out for me. Well, let me ask you all this because I want to talk a little bit about just some boundaries because I feel like that’s a part of these type of conversations as well is, how do you know when you don’t have capacity for a friendship, and how do you honor that? Anybody want to talk to that or speak to that?

Taleen: Yeah. I’ll say, for me. Yeah, no, I’ll say for me, I know—and it takes a while. I don’t know instantly, but I know when it feels like I’m, you know, going against the grain, and you know, constantly kind of hit my head up against the wall in a situation with a friend, and so I know when it’s just not, this is not necessarily what the Lord has called me. I always think back to his Word, you know?

His yoke is easy and His burden is light, and I reference that in almost every situation, work experience, friendship because if it’s hard for me, you know, all the time, you know not that everything in life is going to be easy, you know we have our challenges. We have, you know, our testing in the fire, but for me, knowing my capacity, you know, of course, spending that time with the Lord, allowing His Holy Spirit to lead me and guide me, and so just tapping into that. But I’ll know, you know, when I need to step away from a friend. I know in a situation, it’s just it’s not for me. When I’m no longer serving that friend of that friend that’s no longer serving me, I won’t do them the disservice in occupying that space in their life, you know?

Just kind of flipping it around and not thinking about myself, but I feel like I’m doing them a disservice by occupying space in their life when someone else, you know, who the Lord has called, you know, to better serve them, could be in that space and in that moment with them. And so, I will step away and, yeah, just kind of let them, let us both figure it out elsewhere.

CortneyJo: Yeah. Yeah. Like, does it—do you ever feel guilty?

Taleen: Of course because we want to be everything to everyone, right? We want to, of course, when we’re called to this world, we feel like we have to save the world and we have to help everyone we come into contact with. We feel like we, you know, we have to share, right? We have good news, so we want to share with the world. So, if I’ve come into contact with you, you going to know about this guy that I know. You’re going to know about this experience.

But sometimes love, it shows up in different ways. And you don’t necessarily have to always share and hit someone with truth. Sometimes love is walking away. Sometimes love is saying, you know, you need someone else that’s not me, you know in this situation, to you know, to better serve you. So.

CortneyJo: Thank you for that, Taleen. So, this makes me want to talk about the notion of when your friends are making choices you don’t agree with. I want to get you all’s thoughts on that. What do you do when you have a friendgirl—or a friend in general; it could be a friendguy—who’s making choices that are hard for you to watch. What’s that like?

Because I’ll be honest with you, that’s when this—that’s what resonate—when I was thinking of this topic, for this particular episode, that I had a situation where it was like I felt like I had a friend that was struggling with me because maybe I was making some choices that maybe this person just wasn’t—they were struggling with, struggling to understand the choices, if you will. What’s that like for you all?

Clarissa: I can certainly tell a story, an example—a life full of experiences here, both good and bad, right—so I would say CortneyJo, based upon what you just said, I was that friend who wasn’t understanding, right? So, it was some time ago in college. I had a friend who was dating a guy, and I knew that this guy was cheating on her. Now, did I have the proof at that very moment? I did not, but I definitely had strong suspicions, and I wanted my friend to know. I wanted her eyes wide open.

And I kind of badgered her about it, you know, I wanted her—because she was my friend, so I wanted to protect her, I wanted her to be safe, I wanted her to feel loved, and I wanted her to be cherished, and I just didn’t believe in that moment, in that season, she was being those things, or she was being treated as such. So, I do remember, some time had passed, the cheating did not stop, and then I got some more proof right, and I kind of confronted her with it. And you know, she was still in denial. She still didn’t believe me, you know, over her boyfriend. And I remember being so upset, you know, that she was making a very difficult choice, you know? I didn’t understand it at all. I just didn’t.

And so, I told her, I said, I cannot sit here and watch him, you know, stomp over your heart and disrespect you like this. And her response was, “Well, then don’t. Well, then don’t.” And our friendship, you know, pretty much dissolved, you know, because of that incident. And the crazy thing is, is after a few years, it did come out, actually, it was through a series of devastating events for her, but it did come out that he was unfaithful, you know, and she was crushed. I was crushed as well, but we weren’t close anymore, right? And one of the most valuable lessons that I learned from that experience was as a friend, it’s not my job to be right. It is my job to be present, though.

Taleen: That’s good. That’s good, Clarissa. I think about, I mean, and this is just so loud for me, but I agree, you know? I think a lot of times, and we can all share a situation where, you know, we had a friend going through something tough, and we wanted to give it to them raw, so to speak, right? We knew what they needed to hear, but maybe that’s not what they needed in that moment.

And so, I think really this walk in this friendship for me, and what is this teaching me is that sometimes you have to sit in love and choose that over truth. Maybe that’s not what they need right now. Just love on that front, right? And that’s what I’ve learned in my experiences, knowing what that friend needs and being able to sit in that moment. They need love, sometimes they need understanding, sometimes they just need to be heard.

And I always say—and I think I shared this with you several times, CortneyJo—I don’t feel like I’m that friend that needs to give that friend truth. Like, you know, often will have a conversation. You’ll say, “Well, Taleen, why you didn’t share that?” And it’s like, “Well, I didn’t feel like, you know, you didn’t need necessarily to hear from me. You’re surrounded by amazing people. Someone else was going to share with you.” If I felt led, I would have shared it with you.

But a lot of times, we’re not necessarily the friend that needs to share truth all the time. Maybe our role at that moment is just to be there and to be present and to listen and to love on that person. And so, just knowing your role at that moment, you know? Friends, sometimes it can be fragile. How many times we’ve been in a frazzled state, and we’re like, we just want you to—I want to be heard right now. Like, just tell me I’m not crazy in this situation. Tell me that. You know maybe you’ve experienced this, or you’ve thought this from time to time, and then definitely hearing that truth later. So, yeah.

Shawna: Yeah. That’s really good. And I want to call out that, you know, there’s a technique that I think CortneyJo employs a lot, and it’s like, hey, what do you need from me? Do you need me to listen, or do you need me to offer a solution? And it’s like, let’s establish that up front, and then I can navigate through, you know, supporting you the best that I can. And that’s a really good practice. So, just wanted to add that, thank you.

CortneyJo: Thank you, Shawna. It is a really good practice because it helps you as—and it’s something that I had to learn, Shawna [laugh]—one of the things I—I was like, oh, Shawna, I’m so happy that you didn’t know me back then, when I used to think that, [laugh] when I used to think that if somebody’s life didn’t change as a result of talking to me, then I didn’t do my job right. Y’all, it was such immaturity on my part. I used to feel like I needed to be a savior in people’s lives. I mean, this was years ago now, and I learned through other sweet, loving friendships, and y’all know, Cat. Cat has just been there, rocked with me for years and years and years, and she was one of those friends that helped me to understand that.

She was like, “CJ, you don’t have to always have a solution, you know? You ask people, you know? Do they need you to just listen, or do they need to do they need feedback?” And I think some people, I know, I can speak for myself back in the day, it says something to me, about me, you know? But this isn’t about me, you know? This is that friendgirl’s this is her journey and her relationship with the Lord. I am not the savior, you know? Jesus is enough [laugh] by himself. I don’t need to be the Savior.

But then that also takes a lot of pressure off of me, you know? And that allows me to actually be there for you, you know? It allows me to just be what you need in that moment. You know, my therapist says it’s always important to Grace someone before you truth someone. You know, that’s important. You know, make sure that you are offering grace and giving grace to people.

But we as individuals, we are not responsible for anybody’s transformation. We are not responsible for anybody’s healing. We are not responsible for anybody’s growth. We are not responsible for anybody’s downfall either. But what we can do, if we choose to, is like you said, Clarissa, be present and be available to them. And I am so honored that each of you all have allowed me to be present for you. And thank you so much for being present for me and not judging me, you know, when I make some little sketchy choices and decisions [laugh]. Y’all know, I made a few sketchy ones.

Taleen: [laugh]. We all have CortneyJo. We all have [laugh].

CortneyJo: Listen, listen, like, side eye, like, side eye, side lip, all the things, like, a sis is, I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s the way. But I’m so glad you didn’t leave me in those moments. Thank you for not leaving me and thank you for not judging me. And I think another thing y’all—and speak to this, if you want to—is that sometimes friendgirls, you know, if they haven’t been through what you’re going through, they feel like they can’t support you. Like, you don’t always have to relate, right? Like I am so grateful to the Lord when I can empathize with someone and what they’re going through, but do we always have to relate to somebody? Do we always have to have experienced that, to be with them and trust the Lord on their journey. Talk to me. What do y’all think?

Clarissa: Listening, listening, listening, you know? That is such a key skill, and you know, it’s one that you do learn how to do more and better, you know, as you find those true friends. Because, to your point, everybody doesn’t need a story for every situation that’s brought up, you know? You don’t have to say, “Oh, me too, and I just experienced the same thing.” Like, nobody cared that you experienced the same thing. Like, I don’t want to hear that in that moment, you know?

I want to hear I want you to just listen and sit with me as I try to sift through maybe an experience or something that’s just happened, and just be present. So, it’s just that active listening skill that so many of us do lack, and it’s such a critical and vital part of a great friendship.

Taleen: Yeah, that’s good, Clarissa. How many times have we started, like, or we had a conversation with a friend and then I’m like, “Yeah, I’ve been through that too.” And you’re just sitting there, like, “Well, I wasn’t even done.” Like, “I didn’t even get my whole thought out.” Like, “I didn’t finish. How do you know what I’ve been through? I didn’t even—I didn’t tell it all.”

And so, going back to that, like, you know, Cortney did, like, sharing that before you even start the conversation, do you need me to listen or you need me to provide feedback? Because you never know what that person needs in that moment. And so, that’s really, really good. Like, hearing me out because I need to get this out. You know, a lot of us are listeners, you know, by nature, and so to have someone listen to us is key.

Shawna: And listening to understand, not waiting for a turn to respond.

CortneyJo: Yeah. I love that, just, like, listening to understand. Yeah, that’s really, really good. And like I said, I think the most freeing thing here is that you are not responsible for that person’s healing, their growth, or their transformation, and so that’s why you can listen. That’s why you can sit in that spot and just listen.

Because you know now if you’re able to offer some feedback or resources, y’all know, I love those resources. Thank y’all for letting me do that. If you’re able to offer some feedback or some resources that is helpful, that’s still not on you. Like, that’s still—I say, it’s just Holy Spirit inspired. Let’s just give credit where credit is due.

This is the Lord and, like, Lord—and so whenever I really always appreciate, if you all choose to share with me how something that I’ve said potentially or a resource that I recommend it was really fruitful, really helpful. One of my responses is, well, bless the Lord, you know? I’m like, thank you, Lord. You know it’s not like, yeah, I did that, you know? No, that’s not—it’s because it’s still it’s not about me. It never was, and it never will be.

I always want to bless the Lord in those moments because that’s just—all glory goes to the Lord, right? And so, it’s such an honor to be a friend. Clarissa, I know I love when you say you will know how to have good friends when you learn how to be a good friend. And that’s really, really good. Another point I want to make—and then I want to ask you all about being a MUCH Woman in friendships—but another point that I wanted to make really quick. It was something you said, Shawna, and I’m trying to, it just kind of slipped my mind for a second there. It’ll probably come back to me. I’ll let that come back to me. I need to—probably should be writing some stuff down here. It’ll come back to me.

But let me ask you all about being a MUCH Woman in friendships because I asked all guests on this podcast this, all guests this about what it means to you to be a MUCH Woman. And just as a reminder to any listeners that may be tuning in for the first time, that much is an acronym: M standing for measured, meaning that you take time and you pray and you’re deliberate in your your choices. You’re just making sure that you’re seeking the Lord before you make decisions. U is for unafraid. You know, being unafraid, being courageous when you need to be courageous. Captivating. That’s what C stands for. Captivating, showing up in spaces with your head held high and with confidence. And then H is for heroic, being a woman who’s able to make difficult decisions. Even when difficulty is all that’s in front of her, she’s still able to make those difficult decisions. So, let me get you all’s thoughts, and I love to hear from all of you all on what it means to be a MUCH Woman in friendships.

And I remembered what I wanted to say, it just came back to me, and then I want you to give me your thoughts on being a MUCH Woman, but when a friend asks you, do you want me to listen, or do you want me to give feedback? I think it’s really important that, if you’re being asked that question, that you pause before you respond because you get to actually think about what you want or think about what you need. Don’t be so quick to respond. “Oh girl, yeah, tell me what you think.” Like, no, like, “Thank you for asking that question. Let me think about what I need right now.” So, I would recommend that. So, that’s what I wanted to share. All right, sisters. MUCH Woman.

Taleen: Can I—want to say something real quick before I answer the MUCH Woman, and I was thinking about this. And to anybody listening, I think it’s important to realize, too, you’re not going to always get it right. And I’m thinking about our friendship, not just everything that everybody’s saying, there was a point in time where I’ve definitely fumbled a lot of friendships, and I didn’t always get it right. And I’m sure, you know, people will have stories of, you know, experiences that they’ve had with me that probably wasn’t as favorable because I was learning. And so, you said, you know, it’s important that we give our friends grace. That’s what builds a good friendship, but it’s important that we give ourselves grace, too, you know?

As I shared before, you know, when we first hear about this good news and we hear about, you know, this amazing sacrifice that was done for us, like, you on fire, right? So, you’re like, I want to tell the world about it, you know, and I’m just on fire for the Lord. And so sometimes, you know, you can take that one or two ways. You can just be on fire, and I’m telling the world about Jesus, in probably not the most graceful way, in a way that someone needs it, and so definitely giving myself grace has been what has gotten me to this point that I’m able to hold the best and the worst of my friends because I didn’t always do that. I didn’t always have a testimony, and I wasn’t always able to relate.

And so, to answer that question before, and I was thinking about this, and I didn’t want it to leave me, I’m able to hold the worst of my friends because I’ve sat in it right? And I’ve sat sometime in my worst, and I think about how people handle me, and so I’m able to handle those. I’m able to take that and flip it, you know?

CortneyJo: Love that. Taleen. Thank you for sharing that. Love that. So, Shawna, can we start with you on MUCH Woman? You know, MUCH Woman in friendships.

Shawna: So, when I reflect on what it means to be a MUCH Woman, and this is a resounding theme throughout our conversation so far immediately, the word grace comes to the forefront of my mind. Always being mindful to extend the same grace to others and ourselves that we are afforded through Christ’s living sacrifice. And for me, the MUCH Woman leaves with authentic and audacious kindness and love and she inspires others to do the same. And always being mindful of loving one another is one of our biggest and greatest commandments, as Christ loves us. So, if we lead with love, and I think that’s just, that’s the umbrella there, leading with love and grace.

You mentioned the you don’t always have to relate, but sometimes we go through those things so that we can then be an encouragement to someone else. And so, if we take our experiences as learning opportunities and know that they are gifts that we can then, you know, plant seeds and pour into one another, they make them all worthwhile. So, I think that’s in a nutshell what a MUCH Woman in a friendship looks like.

Clarissa: And I’ll go next. So, first of all, I thank God for giving you that acronym because that acronym is super powerful, and I encourage anybody listening to really, really think about how that applies to them, right, because then you’ll begin to understand maybe a little bit more about yourself and how you show up in life and as a friend as well. But I would say that I strive, you know, to live as a MUCH Woman every single day, measured in how I show up with grace, discernment, and humility. One of my sayings is I default to grace, now, you know? So, I give people the benefit of the doubt. It’s as simple as that.

But I also am measured, again, in how I discern, you know, what might be best for me and best for others. And then just being humble, you know, I think we’ve shared a lot of stories. You know, God will humble us, you know, and we should accept that opportunity, you know, to look at things a different way. So, I would definitely say humility is huge. And then unafraid to have those honest conversations and experience growth through being vulnerable.

You know, going back to everybody can’t hold the true you, but there are people that can, right? So, those are the people it’s okay—I think Taleen said earlier, you know—it’s okay to let your hair down. It’s okay to take your wig off, too. You know, like, just be who you are, you know, because those are those people. And so, definitely unafraid and captivating, I believe in the way that I do embrace the differences of others and how I know I show up with authenticity.

And then lastly, but not least, heroic, right? Because I know I don’t have it all together, but I know that I keep showing up, and I know I show up with faith, with love, with intention, even on those hard days. And that is the kind of friend that I desire to be, and I believe that that’s also the kind of woman that God has called me to be.

CortneyJo: Amen. Well said, sis. I know, well said, sister. Taleen, you want to wrap us up here?

Taleen: Absolutely, it would be my pleasure. It’s definitely, it sits with me. It sits with me. I love the whole idea of this podcast, and just honored that we wrap up this season, and you know, believe in God for many, many more seasons, right? Many, many more, you know, in Jesus’ name.

But I think about the measure, you know, part of MUCH Woman, and for me, it’s just, you know, missing the mark for me, right? Because the Bible talks about how we have yet to obtain that, right? We’re still pressing towards it. And so, I press towards the mark. And so, that’s what that means for me, and just pressing towards—like, I have yet to reach, you know, all that the Lord has called me to, but I press, and I’m really encouraged that I press on, [laugh] every single day. And so, I’m extremely grateful and understanding that it’s like, I’m not going to always get it right today, but I’m pressing. I’m pressing.

And I’m just unafraid, right? We talk about what that means and what that looks like because for us, for me, being unafraid, you know, you think about what’s going to happen at the end, right? You know, we shared about and we talked about the whole analogy of the diamond. When you think about that whole process of creating something so beautiful, goes to the fire, and so we’re tested, we’re tried. We go through trials and tribulations.

And so, being unafraid because I know what I’m going to be on the end of this. I know how amazing, you know, my story, my testimony is going to be. And so, I suffer well, [laugh] I suffer well because I know that my testimony is going to be fire. Pun intended, pun intended. And just captivating, I’m allowing the Holy Spirit to do that.

I think we begin performing when we’re trying to be any of these things, but when we truly sit in that space with the Lord and have those quiet times and just cry and just and let loose, we’re allowing the Lord to blanket us in His Holy Spirit and His goodness. And heroic [laugh] just daring to, you know, we talk about that, right, daring to open yourself up to friendships, you know? Daring to try new things and to sometimes be hurt, right? Be hurt and get it wrong and say the wrong things, but then be open to being corrected in love and to also correct in love, and just dare to be yourself. You know you’re not going to be everybody’s cup of tea because I like coffee, so you might not like it, right? So, you’re not going to be everybody’s tea, and that’s okay, you know? To me, that’s the whole thing of it. Just be okay with that. You’re not going to be for everyone, but you’re going to be the right someone for someone. So.

CortneyJo: That’s beautiful and so well said. I loved what all of you all said about that. Thank you so much. And Taleen, I think what I really loved about you say, you said you may not be the, you know, you may not be all things for maybe everybody, but I do think it’s important that we do focus on, you know, being really good to ourselves first and foremost because, again, that’s how we can give back to others.

Clarissa: I want to say thank you for having us.

Shawna: Yes, thank you.

Taleen: Yeah. Thank you for everything, right? Your whole birthday trip and getting us together.

CortneyJo: Y’all, thank you for coming on that trip with me.

Taleen: Listen, I was ready to come to New York, so yes.

CortneyJo: I know we still going to do a New York. Y’all didn’t even know each other, and y’all came for me, and I can’t thank you all enough for coming from me. So, thank you so much. And it was lovely, and now look at this beautiful little four-way that has been created here. And so.

Shawna: Such a blessing. And as divinely orchestrated, God makes no mistakes as far as the meeting place and the pathways he puts us on. He knew that we all needed each other, and being able to see his hand in everything is such a beautiful thing, such a blessing.

CortneyJo: And that, family, brings us to the close of this beautiful conversation. Friends that can hold the real you, not just the best of you. I want to just take a moment to thank each of my incredible sisters for showing up with true tenderness and transparency. It has really meant the world to have you all on this conversation with me today, and thank you so much for your time and your energy and just contributing to this beautiful conversation.

One of the things I did want to share before I thank you each specifically, just to our listeners, one of the things that did come to mind that I didn’t get to share during the episode was when you are listening to some friendgirls—or a friendguy—who may be making some decisions or choices that you may not agree with, or maybe you have a problem with, or something like that, one of the things that’s really been good for me is just remembering who my friend is and remembering the God that’s in them and remembering that they have the ability to learn and to grow and to get what they need in the time that they needed, and so I don’t feel this pressure for them to have to change right away or be something different right away. I can trust that they do have what it takes to get to where they need to be, and I’m grateful to be along the journey with them, and I’m always honored when friendgirls allow me to do that. And so, I just wanted to share that, again, just trusting God with their story.

So, with that, I want to say to Clarissa Buckley, thank you so much, honey, for your honesty, your humor and the fearless way that you challenge and love at the same time. Shawna Martinez, thank you so much for your vulnerability, your wisdom, and the gift, your gift of words. I love to hear you speak, Shawna. And Taleen, thank you for your steady presence, your insight, and your heart that holds space so well. You are the friendgirl that you’re able to listen, you don’t always have to respond, and I thank you for being in that friendgirl for me.

I am deeply grateful for this honest sisterhood, for friendships that don’t just celebrate our highs, but sit with us in our healing as well. These kind of conversations remind us that we don’t have to perform to be loved. We just have to be. The right ones will meet us there, so to every listener, who are your real ones, the people who can hold your truth, your joy, your questions, and your journey, not just the highlight reel. Can they hold the real you? I want you to take some time and think about that, okay?

And maybe the more important question is, are you becoming that kind of friend, too? Are you the friend that can hold the real them. Everyone, thank you so much for being with us this season. Again, I pray that every episode has stirred something sacred in you, and I also want to sincerely thank HumblePod productions for all the incredible and beautiful work this season. Thank you all so much. And I want to thank Chris Hill, the CEO of HumblePod, for everything, your partnership in this. It has been truly a blessing.

And I also want to send out a special thanks to my sweet, darling, dear best friendgirl, Cat Samuel, for everything you’ve done to support me and MUCH Woman, all of the business work that you’ve helped me with behind the scenes, but also being a producer on this particular episode we just recorded. And I just thank you so much for your faithfulness and for your friendship and for your love. Thank you for loving me so well, Cat. I’ve learned how to love better because you love me. So, thank you for loving me.

Before we end. I just want to pray really quick, and I’ll let you all get back to your day. So, thank you. Let me just do a quick prayer. Lord Jesus, thank you for friends who reflect your grace and help us to hold others gently and to be held. Help us to release the performance and to embrace truth. Teach us how to love wisely, live honestly, and honor the capacity you’ve given us. In Jesus’ name we pray.

Until next time listeners, stay measured, stay unafraid, stay captivating, and stay heroic. You know why? Because you’re a MUCH Woman.

Stay updated with the latest episodes of the podcast at muchwoman.com, and tune in on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever fine podcasts are available. We look forward to seeing you next time.